zoomer3 posted on 12/11/00 6:41:29 AM
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RE: Is Music Really Dirty?
David was not a WORSHIP LEADER and we have him singing Psalms "upon his bed" and "meditating" on them in His heart. You will notice that, as with all instrumental psalms, this one seeks harm to David's personal enemies. The Levitical singers were WARRIOR "noise makers" under the KING and the COMMANDERS OF THE ARMY.
The word MUSIC does not appear in the Biblical text. This is a personal poem and poems tend to be poetic: The writer could never enter into the Holy Place or type of the church of Christ without getting executed.
(A Psalm or Song for the sabbath day.)
IT is a good thing to give thanks unto the Lord, and to sing praises unto thy name, O most High: Psalm 92:1
H3034 Yada yaw-daw' A primitive root; used only as denominative from H3027 ; literally to use (that is, hold out) the hand; physically to throw (a stone, an arrow) at or away; especially to revere or worship (with extended hands); intensively to bemoan (by wringing the hands):
To shew forth thy lovingkindness in the morning, and thy faithfulness every night, Psalm 92:2
Upon an instrument of ten strings, and upon the psaltery; upon the harp with a solemn [murmuring] sound. Psalm 92:3
A solemn sound is HIGGAOWN and not a "spiritual word." To PRAISE God usually was the word HALAL which means to "make self vile" in an attempt to panic the enemy. The word for Lucifer is directly derived from this PRAISE word.
The Lord is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah. Ps.9:16
The lips of those that rose up against me, and their device against me all the day. Lam.3:62
Now, let's see you sing on a ten-stringed instrument, psaltery and harp: but not in the holy places please. The word sing or ZAMAR can included an instrument. However, it does not get the job done here or anywhere unless that instrument is NAMED.
However, this was not MUSICATING but speaking or reciting with the strum of a string to sustain the SPOKEN word: there is no example of congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment:
"in music, intoned liturgical recitation of scriptural texts, guided by signs originally devised as textual accents, punctuations, and indications of emphasis.. first intended to clarify the reading of the texts
Ritual music was at first only cantillation, i.e., recitative chanting, of the prose books of the Bible
Of the SONGS paul defined:
Ode (g5603) o-day'; from 103; a chant or "ode" the gen. term for any words sung; while 5215 denotes espec. a religious metrical composition, and 5568 [psalmos] still more spec. a Heb. cantillation): - song.
The SONG further defines PSALMOS as in SPEAKING as Paul makes very clear when he commanded SPEAK to one another.
Later the prayers and biblical poetry were chanted, presumably in a modal system similar to the ragas of Hindu music or the maqamat of Arab music, i.e., melodies with improvisations. Jewish Liturgical Music
David enjoyed putting his boot on the neck of the enemy: this is the way he SANG TO THE GENTILES. However, David was a secular king who REPLACED GOD when the elders demanded a king like the nations so that they could worship like the nations. God promised them that the kings would ENSLAVE the people and lead them into captivity and death. God gave them kings in His anger and took them away in His anger:
Mine eye also shall see my desire on mine enemies, and mine ears shall hear my desire of the wicked that rise up against me. Psa 92:11
David enjoyed shed the blood OF the Gentiles: Jesus would shed His blood FOR the Gentiles. David was not a Levite and therefore not an authorized temple singer or musician. Not even David could bring his harp into the Holy Place as a type of the church of Christ.
There weren't any surprises for me at the piney.com site. I think I heard that hammered from pulpits throughout my childhood. We all choose to hold fast to those things we want and to let go of those things we do not want. I don't really agree with almost anything that Ken said, but like he said at the close, I don't have to. Thanks be to God. Now, turn up the Christian music.
JC
Unless you are over fifty I doubt that you have ever heard a literate sermon on instruments. I personally have heard only one that mumbled something about gopher wood and laws. One of the rarest events in churches of Christ is sermonizing against instruments. One only hears about it when people try to promote it.
Turning up the Christian music (an oxymoron) is certainly the Biblical and historical way to keep from hearing the Word of God. Rebellion against "remembered" events of childhood in churches of Christ seems very popular these days:
"When I was a child my daddy wouldn't let me dance, and now, gosh! I wanna have God enfold me in his arms and lead me." Dare I?
Everone needs to get rid of memories induced by later sermons, turn off the music and listen at the Feet of Jesus. It may be too late.
The Jews also thought that idols (often instruments) spoke to them and instructed but:
Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it. Hab 2:19
But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him. Hab 2:20
If you come into His most holy place He will have been there and gone.
Perhaps if I insert just one reference it can be digested to prove the universal view of all ancient Bible scholars including the Catholic Encyclopedia. This and EVERY bit of Biblical and historical testimony associates instrumental music played in the face of a Holy, Spiritual God as rank paganism because it tells God: "We will not listen to YOUR words."
The churches of Christ OF MY HURTFUL YOUTH didn't invent that: neither Baptist, Methodists or Presbyterians at the time used instruments. And in fact, there are many churches who are still faithful to the DIRECT COMMANDS and dozens of examples in the Bible.
Perhaps we just HATE THE WORD and that means HATING its Author.
Tertullian noted that sacrificial worship is not Christian Worship
"For such is the power of earthly pleasures, that, to retain the opportunity of still partaking of them,
"it contrives to prolong swilling ignorance, and bribes knowledge into playing a dishonest part."To both things, perhaps, some among you are allured by the views of the heathens who in this matter are wont to press us with arguments, such as these:
(1) That the exquisite enjoyments of ear and eye we have in things external are not in the least opposed to religion in the mind and conscience; and
(2) That surely no offence is offered to God, in any human enjoyment, by any of our pleasures, which it is not sinful to partake of in its own time and place, with all due honour and reverence secured to Him.
But this is precisely what we are ready to prove: That these things are not consistent with true religion and true obedience to the true God. Tertullian De Spectaculis
Lucian of Samosata (about whom instrumentalists lie, lie, lie) defined a SEEKER CENTER identical to that of the Oracle of Delphi which honored Apollo. Apollo is the Abaddon or Apollyon who will return in the end-times (now?). His task is to SEPARATE those MARKED by music from those MARKED by the Word:
Alexander, on the other hand, preferred his native place, urging very truly that an enterprise like theirs required congenial soil to give it a start,
in the shape of 'fat-heads' and simpletons; that was a fair description, he said, of the Paphlagonians beyond Abonutichus;
they were mostly superstitious and well-to-do; one had only to go there with someone to play the flute, the tambourine, or the cymbals, set the proverbial mantic sieve a-spinning, and there they would all be gaping as if he were a god from heaven.
Origen Book VI, Chapter XLI.
In the next place, as if he had forgotten that it was his object to write against the Christians, he says that, "having become acquainted with one Dionysius,
an Egyptian musician,
the latter told him, with respect to magic arts,
that it was only over the uneducated and men of corrupt morals that they had any power,
while on philosophers they were unable to produce any effect, because they were careful to observe a healthy manner of life."
JC posted on 12/13/00 12:21:03 PM
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RE: Is Music Really Dirty?
Robyn
I am disturbed by the article that was written about how terrible Christian music is. I respect each and every person's opinion, but I am sad that someone can feel the need to write (that much) of a response condeming Christian music.
I am sure that this will sound incredible to those who have "taken away the key to knowledge" with music but it is nevertheless a FACT that the MUSIC word is not used ONCE in the entire Bible in connection with worship except by pagans.
The Levitical sounders made NOISE and never called MUSIC. They made it in a secular sense to give glory to an earthly kingdom which was Israel's failed "experiment with the idolatry of nationhood." They MOCKED or performed exorcism during the slaughter and burning of animals. These animals were the TYPE of Lord Jesus Christ whom would also be mocked by the Levitical (warrior) instrumentalists.
Nothing seems to upset people as much as quoting the Bible and historical facts. The condemnation is against trying to intrude so-called Christian worship into the assembly and, don't forget it, every time people condemn churches of Christ for not falling into body worship and suggest worshiping with CCM they have an agenda.
I realize the controversial nature of this,
but why someone wants to be that judgemental over the reasons why people create Christian music
and the intended nature of its message is beyond reason.
I would encourage everyone who has that hard-lined of a stance against something that is so positive to spend a little less time telling people how its wrong to do things that make us stronger Christians.
The fuss is created by the TEAMS and INSTRUMENTALISTS who are so gross that they have no shame in trampling the courts and entering into the Holy Place as the type of the church of Christ. And they FORCE their way in over the objections of the owners of the church property, DELIBERATELY SOW DISCORD and divide.
Sorry, but musical worship will just take away the key to knowledge. Every professional musician knows that they can sell junk if they wrap it in the stolen name of "Christ."
I respect the fact that someone might not like or accept this style of music, but I resent the fact that people are still trying to judge other people's genuine effort to make the world a better and more spiritual place.
It does more harm than good for someone to tell me that I shouldn't feel uplifted, or that it's wrong that I am uplifted, by something that makes me give more praise to God. Of course, that's just my opinion.
Those who IMPOSE are the ones who PASS JUDGMENT. They tell people that their 2,000 year understanding of the Biblical and historical condemnation of MAKING MUSIC in the face of God that they are just OLD. Jesus identified them as "children piping trying to make everyone sing THEIR perverted Dionysus song and dance naked like David."
Well, I suppose that I am spiritually handicapped but my engineering brain has never been able to think of two things at the same time. And I truly have tried. Singing those "preparation for the Lord's Supper" songs and thinking about Jesus is a physical impossibility. So what we are thinking about may be a visioned view of Jesus which does not fit the pattern of Him as Full Deity. If he walks into your house don't try to praise Him by singing songs out of your own spirit. Of course, that's just my opinion.
Robyn Guidicy posted on 1/25/01 11:10:11 PM
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RE: Is Music Really Dirty?
I have also responded to Robyn Guidicy's endorsement and practice of an Christmas Candlelight service. Everyone knows that the agenda of the youth is to introduce instrumental music in the church or to write off those who will not endorse instrumentalist as racists and worse. We are also offended that this site would, while flying the banner of Christian, openly confess but not repent of ripping off the musicians using Napster as their Robin Hood. Music has its effect for the same reason the addict gets high: it creates endorphins (morphin-like) which relives the hurt of harmony with enough left over for the 'runner's high.' We have no objection to spiritual cocaine but please don't try to sell it as "worship." It is not: it is self-induced worship of a Jesus who is not the same "Lord" as the New Testament Lord. There are gods and lords many but there is only one God and He is not seduced by music. The common theme of this forum is "what it does for me" as a clue that it is a substitute for true worship and teaching our children the truth.
See Robyn Guidicy's Definition of ancient FIRE WORSHIP and modern witchcraft.
Flintstone
Brent, you know what really makes me smile about the coc and christian music?
We take one verse - about the HEART - singing and making medody in our HEARTS to the Lord,
then we add some historical stuff from Josephus about what was done back then
and then a smidgen of
"we speak where the Bible speaks and we're silent where the Bible is silent"
and then we pour out - No Musical Instruments.But you know it is even better than this. We take what should be a matter of each person's own opinion and we conform it also to popular christian music.
It is simply whistling through the cemetary to claim that we take one word and build a doctrine. If it is believed then Tertullian's note above proves the fact.
There is nothing in the Bible which identifies any kind of singing or music when the people assemble only for instruction in the word. The word PSALLO translated "melody" is not a musical word but a warfare word. The word means to PLUCK a string ONLY WITH THE FINGERS and NEVER WITH A PLECTRUM because it had to do with shooting literal arrows:
Hide me from the secret counsel of the wicked; from the insurrection (noisy crowd) of the workers of iniquity: Psalm 64:2NIV
They sharpen their tongues like swords and aim their words like deadly arrows. Psalm 64:3
Shanan (h8150) shaw-nan'; a prim. root; to point (trans. or intrans.); intens. to pierce; fig. to inculcate: - prick, sharp (-en), teach diligently, whet.
Whose arrows are sharp, and all their bows bent, their horses hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind: Is.5:28
E.Ion173 Euripides, Ion speaking of Apollo or Abaddon or Apollyon's "seeker center" where the muses (locusts) were his musical worship team. It was 100% commercial knowing that you could "blow the flute and cause the fat heads and simpletons to give up their food money.
But I will cease from labor [145] with the laurel branch and I wil hurl from golden vases Gaia's fountain, which Castalia's eddies pour out, casting out the moist drops, [150] since I am chaste. May I never cease to serve Phoebus in this manner; or, if I do, may it be with good fortune. Ah, ah! Already the birds of Parnassus have left their nests, [155] and come here. I forbid you to approach the walls and the golden house. I will reach you with my bow, herald of Zeus, though you conquer [160] with your beak the strength of all other birds. Here comes another, a swan, to the rim of the temple. Move your crimson foot elsewhere! Phoebus' lyre, that sings with you, [165] would not protect you from my bow. Alter your wings' course; go to the Delian lake; if you do not obey, you will steep your lovely melody in blood. [170] Ah, ah! what is this new bird that approaches; you will not place under the cornice a straw-built nest for your children, will you? My singing bow will keep you off. Will you not obey? [175] Go away and bring up your offspring by the eddies of Alpheus, or go to the Isthmian grove, so that the offerings, and the temple of Phoebus, are not harmed. . . . and yet I am ashamed to kill you, [180] for to mortals you bear the messages of the gods; but I will be subject to Phoebus [Apollo] in my appointed tasks, and I will never cease my service to those who nourish me.
Paul commanded that BOTH singing and MELODY be in the PLACE of the human heart or spirit. Then and now this was a common expression:
Plautus, Curculio CAPPADOX My spleen is killing me, my reins are in torment, my lungs are being torn asunder, my liver is being tortured, my heart-strings are giving way, all my intestines are in pain.
Hecuba Alas! a dreadful trial is near, it seems, [230] full of mourning, rich in tears. Yes, I too escaped death where death had been my due, and Zeus did not destroy me but is still preserving my life, that I may witness in my misery fresh sorrows surpassing all before. But if the bond may ask the free of things that do not GRIEVE them or WRENCH their heart-strings, you ought to speak in answer to my questions and I ought to hear what you have to say.
-
The man who
was dying blessed me; I made the widow's heart sing. Jb.29:13
that my heart may sing to you and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give you thanks forever Ps.30:12
I will praise you, O LORD, with all my heart; before the "gods" I will sing your praise. Ps.138:1
The MUSIC word in Greek is SUMPHONIA. It means singing, dancing, clapping, playing instruments and sexuality. It is used of secular parties and the MUSICIANS in employ of the end-time Babylon Whore worship leaders speaks of the TEAM of Apollo or Abaddon of Apollyon or Satan who had the 9 muses and could change himself "into an angel of light" (a dolphin) to seduce MINISTERS to convert to HIS end-time worship.
All Christian music is commercial music. It simply takes the tunes of the world, throws in a bunch of "spiritual" stuff which has no Biblical and therefore no Christian endorsment and then sell, sell sell. I repeat:
Nothing Christian is for sale and
Nothing for sale can be Christian.
"The large displacement of the Psalter by other matter of praise in the Protestant Churches during the last one hundred years has been due, not so much to the lack of appreciation of the Psalms, as to the commercial enterprise of music publishers." (Int Std Bible Ency., Psalms, p. 2494B).
We have no problem with giving up "rock or rap" (sexual terms) in favor of "CCM." But then the musical group boasts of providing a church venue for Rock and Rap. These forms work because they are undiluted Voodoo. Christian music may be just as bad if it teaches error or induces an effeminate sentimentality which cannot stomach being challenged or reluctant to listen to Josephus but willing to listen to pop-sermonizing which deliberately "takes away the key to knowledge" or using Curtis Chapman for proof-texting. Even the hypothetically inspired person in Corinth was not to speak without being judged. Didn't know that?
The problem is that these CCM stars are endorsed in sermons and when they throw away the old husband for a newer one we have done more damage than good.
So, instead of our teenagers listening to music on the radio or cd's that speak of a relationship with the Lord, how wonderful He is, how our souls sing with joy about being His children, how in the words of Steven Curtis Chapman we are "invited to believe the unbelieveable" (what a gift God's grace is) our teenagers listen to pop music about sex, about drugs about unfulfilled relationships- from artists who Satan has ensconsed in his pocket.
God doesn't ask us to believe anything that is unbelievable. Those who love the truth just accept it as the most logical fact in the world. Those who have to have their emotions stroked in order to get a feeling confused as spiritual do not have faith and therefore need a drug high (endorphins) and mistake the feeling with the fact. Such "mind altering" by music is a short as your shoestring.
The LXX which Jesus "did" read adds the trouble with music--
You strum away on your harps like David and
improvise on musical instruments. who excel in the sound of musical instruments; Amos 6:5
- they have regarded them as abiding,
- not as fleeting pleasure." Amos 6:5 LXX
Excelling is what the Levitical musicians did as they drove even Israelites slaves to build the temple in Jerusalem.
God warned that the kings would confiscate their youth to make musical instruments and use them to RUN BEFORE HIS CHARIOT. This was slavery. The kings would DESTROY THE NATION.
Abaddown (h11) ab-ad-done'; intens. from 6; abstr. a perishing; concr. Hades: - destruction.
One of the last things David did to fulfil this fatal prophecy by God was:
David, (king) together with the commanders of the army, set apart some of the sons of Asaph, Heman and Jeduthun for the ministry of prophesying, accompanied by harps, lyres and cymbals. Here is the list of the men who performed this service: 1 Chron 25:1
Abodah (h5656) ab-o-daw'; or abowdah ab-o-daw'; from 5647; work of any kind: - act, bondage, / bondservant, effect, labour, ministering (-try), office, service (-ile, -itude), tillage, use, work, * wrought
Abad (h5647) aw-bad'; a prim. root; to work (in any sense); by impl. to serve, till, (caus.) enslave, etc.: - * be, keep in bondage, be bondmen, bond-service, compel, do, dress, ear, execute, / husbandman, keep, labour (-ing man), bring to pass, (cause to, make to) serve (-ing, self), (be, become) servant (-s), do (use) service, till (-er), transgress [from margin], (set a) work, be wrought, worshipper.
When Lucifer or Abaddon WHOLLY SEDUCED Eve who then spread the perversion to Adam who went willingly, it was because they QUESTIONED THE WORD OF GOD.
When Israel returned to MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai it was spitting in God's face and refusing to abide by The Book of the Covenant. God TURNED THEM OVER to worship the Starry Host including Saturn whose number is 666. He is also MOLECH as a symbol of the BURNING HELL for those who sacrificed their children to musical worship. God will beat them into hell with musical instruments.
For though they had mockingly rejected him who long before had been cast out and exposed, at the end of the events they marveled at him,
for their thirst was not like that of the righteous. Wisdom of Solomon 11:14
In return for their foolish and wicked thoughts, which led them astray to worship irrational serpents and worthless animals,
thou didst send upon them a multitude of irrational creatures to punish them, Wisdom of Solomon 11:15 -
that they might learn that one is punished by the very things by which he sins. Wisdom of Solomon 11:16 -
When Israel's Elders QUESTIONED THE WORD OF GOD He turned them over to the SECULAR king and the commanders of the army to enslave them. Their SERVICE was not worship but to help slaughter and burn a TYPE OF JESUS CHRIST.
The clergy and their musicians refused to listen to Jesus and He turned them over to ignorance and the inability to see or hear Spiritual truth.
When the end-time and unauthorized PREACHERS turn to the MUSICAL FEMININE AND EFFEMINATE it is because they have declared WE WILL NOT LISTEN TO THE WORD OF GOD.
What you see is the fulfillment of a TYPE which used MUSIC to try to defeat God in every musical example in the Bible.
And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. Re.18:14
And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; Re 18:22
It is the 60th Jubilee and YOU ARE THERE: enjoy being beaten into hell with musical instruments as was the king/queen of Babylon and the king/queen of Tyre who is Lucifer (Zoe) the "harp playing prostitute."
In Justin's Dialog with Trypho the Jew he translates this passage--
- Who applaud at the sound of the musical instruments;
- they reckon them as stable, and not as fleeting.
- Who drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments,
- but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph.
Now where tell me please is the logic in all of that. Our line of thinking saddens me so much. What a gift God gave when he gave artists the desire and the ability to sing about Him in such ways that our hearts are lightened and encouraged when we are through music pointed back to the reality of such a fantastic awesome God. God's richest richest blessings and empowerment to those who serve Him and us in this manner. Robyn Guidicy
When Jude spoke of God coming with ten thousand of His saints to execute judgment, the TARGET was the agents of Lucifer who were taught the ARTS of singing and playing musical instruments to SEDUCE worship away from God to the TEAM. Sophia and Zoe made little "jehovah and logos" into musical worship teams and the OBJECT of worship was Sophia- Zoe (Eve, Mary, Inanna, Ishtar, YOUR sister singers).
Genun is the composite of the JUBAL siblings (Keynin "musical" note). Jubal HANDLED musical instruments "without authority" based on the meaning of HANDLED which is a sexual term.
The ENOCH warning about God comming to get the SINGERS, CLAPPERS AND PLAYERS and those who used the IDOLATRY OF TALENT:
"But as to this Genun (Jubal), Satan came into him in his childhood; and he made sundry trumpets and horns, and string instruments, cymbals and psalteries, and lyres and harps, and flutes; and he played on them at all times and at ever hour. -- Second Adam and Eve 20:2
"In pagan traditions, musical instruments are invented by gods or demi-gods, such as titans. In the Bible, credit is assigned to antediluvian patriarchs, for example, the descendants of Cain in Genesis 4:21. There is no other biblical tradition about the invention of musical instruments Freedman, David Noel, Bible Review, Summer 1985, p. 51)
"Where kithara playing and dancing and hand clapping find place, there is the beguiling of men, the corruption of women, the sorrow of angels and a feast for the devil... Today, to all appearances, they sing psalms as God ordained, and tomorrow they will eagerly dance as taught by Satan. Today they contradict Satan and tomorrow they follow him... Let it be far from you that today, as one loving Christ, you listen attentively to the reading of the divine Scripture, and tomorrow as a criminal and a hater of Christ you listen to lyre playing." (St. Ephraim, quoted by Green, p. 37-38).
ALL HISTORY proves that only women and EFFEMINATE MALES fall into this folly.
"And when he played on them, Satan came into them, so that from among them were heard beautiful and sweet sounds, that ravished (raped) the heart. Second Adam and Eve 20:3
The "Judas bag" of the thief was "for carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments." Furthermore, it was prophesied that Judas would attempt to "triumph over" Jesus. This means "to blow wind instruments and make a joyful noise." This was used to panic the enemies into fleeing:
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. John 13:27
I cannot get over the unalterable but most ancient superstition that God needs or loves music any more than He needs a burned cow when He owns the cattle on a thousand hills. And a worse superstition accepts that by mind-altering of the emotional side of the brain we can replace the Word of God. Unfortunately, the facts are that most CCM artists have a false memory and therefore we are just self-serving and driving our rational (spiritual) nature deeper into the point of the Jewish clergy to whom Jesus refused to speak and labeled them: "Children playing public musical games." Their goal was not to make you spiritual but to, like the Dionysus females, dance and sing while they played where the "final act of worship" was in the back room.
There simply is nothing that you can do to your body to make yourself more spiritual. If God gave the artistic community a supernatural gift to add theatrical performance then the ancient paganism which Paul warned against might ask why naked dancing as an artistic skill was not God-given.
Others on the web and the common thesis of the ancient paganism from the Tower of Babel onward is that such music has the effect of making people effeminate. The theme is 'dancing in the embrace of God' or some other errotic "meet my needs" idea rather than teaching the Word:
Socrates. The divine madness was subdivided into four kinds,
- prophetic,
- initiatory,
- poetic,
- erotic,
having four gods presiding over them;
- the first was the inspiration of Apollo,
- the second that of Dionysus,
- the third that of the Muses,
- the fourth that of Aphrodite and Eros. (Inanna, Ishtar the holy whore)
See how Apollo (Apollyon, Abbadon) came from hell to form his musical Seeker-Friendly Oracle.
The work of the MUSICAL LEVITES was ABAD because God promised the ELDERS that the kings would lead them into slavery (abad) and into captivity and death BECAUSE they rejected His words.
"Its (pipe = to love passionately) was apparently a secular instrument and is never listed in the temple orchestra;
only in Ps. 150:4 it is mentioned in a religious (but not ritual) function.
Its ethos was not blameless at all, ase we see from Genesis Rabbah 50: 'The angels said to Lot: 'There are players of the pipe (organ) in the country, hence it ought to be destroyed.'" Its rabbinical identification with the aboda, the flute of the notorious Syrian bayaderes, emphasizes the erotic element which already the Hebrew name suggests." (Interpreters Dictionary of the Bible, p. 460, Abingdon).
'The angels said to Lot: 'There are players of the pipe (organ) in the country, hence it ought to be destroyed'." Its rabbinical identification with the aboda, the flute of the notorious Syrian bayaderes, emphasizes the erotic element which already the Hebrew name suggests." (Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, p. 460, Abingdon).
The Psalmist prophesied and Paul repeated the idea that "Jesus would sing to the Gentiles." Rom 15. This singing, like Ephesians 5 and Colossiand 3, is preaching or teaching the Word or Spirity. Singing is recognized by the Greek Classical world and modern scholars as a secular activity while speaking, preaching or chanting is a religious activity.
"Only in Ps 150:3 is it (shophar) mentioned with most of the other really musical instruments. Hence, we must conclude that the function of the shophar was to make noise--be it of earthly or of eschatological character--but not to make music. After the destruction of the temple and the general banishment of all instrumental music, the shophar alone survived, just because it was not a musical instrument."(Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, p. 473, Abingdon).
In Acts 1:20 psalmos is the book of Psalms and in Rom. 15: sing is psallo.
- "Psallo is best translated by chant,
- not sing.
- The Greeks sharply distinguish chanting (psalmodia)
- from singing (tragoudi).
- The first is a sacred activity;
- the second, a secular one. In English, unfortunately, the distinction is not sharp.. Constantine Cavarnos
Flintstone posted on 1/28/01 9:48:36 PM
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RE: Is Music Really Dirty?
There are many things proper in the world not so in worship unto God. John 4:24 is foundational. I would suggest examining closely the changes Jereboam made in I Kings 12 so as to appease the people, pacify their worship desires and keep them from going south to Jerusalem. The supposed justification for departures from what God has ordained is based purely upon subjective feelings and emotionalism.
True: and that lasts as long as it takes the tune to die down. Jereboam was practicing the "rising up to play" which condemned Israel at Mount Sinai. The word "play" means to sing, dance and play instruments. The Israelites got it from Egypt but it sentenced Israel to captivity and death.
dj posted on 1/29/01 1:27:09 PM
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RE: Is Music Really Dirty?
having grown-up in the 60's and 70's i later found what a negative influence music had on my life. its driving force to influence you into a false reality. fortunately i found christian music later on as an adult. it has greatly changed my life as i also share it with others. there is a christian group called apologetix which take secular songs and rewrites them as biblical parodies. check them out at www.apologetix.com
WHY SHOULD THE DEVIL HAVE ALL THE GOOD MUSIC!
zoomer3 posted on 1/29/01 5:10:23 PM
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RE: Is Music Really Dirty?
All PERFORMING ART is acknowledged to work "because we know that it isn't true." It is UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE to pay attention to Jesus and His Words while WATCHING the strange TEAM and listening to THEIR words which they deem SUPERIOR to the words of Jesus Christ.
The primary WORSHIP word in the Bible is to GIVE HEED to God by GIVING HEED to His word. Musical worship teams which seemed to have been IN HEAVEN was used to SEDUCE people into worshiping him/her instead of God. For his presumption He was CAST OUT just as Jesus "cast out" the musical mouring team 'more or less violently.'
That doesn't make any music evil but it does mean that it has no part to play in Christian worship which is not "body worship" but in spirit worship.
Flintstone,
I think most long term members of the C of C can recognize the emotionalism and the feelings of a Hell, Fire and Brimstone scare sermon and of 26 verses of "Just As I Am", while the preacher continues to plead with the audience "Why not now, why not come to Jesus now?"
Previous WRONG does not make another WRONG into a RIGHT. I have well docummented the fact and been well reprimanded by claiming that PREACHIFYING and using music to produce emotionalism is the FIRST WRONG which gave authority for the SECOND WRONG of worship leaders, praise song books, teams and instruments. All of these are calculated to keep the AUDIENCE dumb enough to keep paying for fill in the blank sermons which teach NOTHING.
Melody is not harmony and harmony, even vocal, dissociates the mind so that nothing taught is going to be remembered. Four Part Fanny may be more destructive than instruments. It says to God: "We just don't care about the direct command to TEACH that which is written" with the singing AND melody left in the heart.
But oh, how we love to walk all over churches of Christ as if they adopted the emotional appeal to revival. The fact is that none of this existed in the Campbell group but grew up around Cane Ridge and other Presbyterian (Stone was a Presbyterian), Baptists and Methodists. The invitational is the residue of the charismatic wing of the church which later added instruments. Because this wing had not rejected Calvinism, the "experience" had to be manufactured in order to prove the worth of the preacher and give them a story by which they could be baptized and "join the church." Too bad that all of the evils were dormant until the church of Christ slips the binding ties of the denominations. But, again, this is a manufactured memory in most cases.
That was the emotionalism I grew up with. But that was appropriate because it made people walk the aisle and the elders liked those statistics.
So, maybe feelings and emotionalism were interjected into our services long ago.
Flintstone posted on 1/30/01 9:35:04 AM
Because complex harmony is called "organum" or after the organ and not A Capella, it has the same endorphin- (morphine-like) effect as instruments or "altar calls." Older emotion-jerking error does not justify going after the people with machines. The "invitation" is a product of the lack of teaching which is defacto proven when songs replace the word of Christ.
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RE: Is Music Really Dirty?
Zoom 3,
I seem to recall Paul saying that since we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ to give account of our lives, and that knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men, such is proper. That some may have "overdone" it, used poor judgment, certainly possible. But where anywhere did anybody get the idea that if something makes you feel good that makes it fine and dandy with God? The icons of catholicism are supposed to get you closer to God, but they don't. They substitute for God's authorized means for approaching Him. The same principle has bearing on this topic of discussion. The difference is between an abuse of that which is authorized and that which is not authorized at all.
zoomer3 posted on 1/30/01 10:37:53 AM
So true. "Spiritual" is related to the rational mind and not to the emotions which can and does cause us to jump off tall buildings because we "feel" that God wants us to jump.
There is no biblical evidence that God created instruments any more than He created shotguns. The only world-wide tradition is that instruments were given by Satan to seduce peopl away from the Word of God. This is why the ancient literature is filled with the conclusion that the musical instruments were the idols because they lived inside. Click for some random resources for the literate.
"Candles from the Catholic Encyclopedia (note: Robyn Guidicy )
The word candle (candela, from candeo, to burn) was introduced into the English language as an ecclesiastical term, probably as early as the eighth century. It was known in classical times and dennoted any kind of taper in which a wick, not uncommonly made of a strip of papyrus, was encased in wax or animal fat.
We need not shrink from admitting that candles, like incense and lustral water, were commonly employed in pagan worship and in the rites paid to the dead.
But the Church from a very early period took them into her service, just as she adopted many other things indifferent in themselves, which seemed proper to enhance the splendour of religious ceremonial.
We must not forget that most of these adjuncts to worship, like music, lights, perfumes, ablutions, floral decorations, canopies, fans, screens, bells, vestments, etc.
were not identified with any idolatrous cult in particular; they were common to almost all cults.
They are, in fact, part of the natural language of mystical expression, and such things belong quite as much to secular ceremonial as they do to religion.
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RE: Is Music Really Dirty?
Why do we have harmony? Is it for God? Is God more pleased with harmony than monotones? We have harmony because WE like it. It sounds good and is pleasing to us, it has nothing to do with what God wants. Harmony is not mentioned in the Bible We, in the C of C, are certainly proficient and "big promoters" of the use of harmony in our singing. Are we abusing something that is "authorized" or is harmony "that which is not authorized"?
If you read to the inclusion of harmony, could we not also read to the inclusion of musical instruments?
Flintstone posted on 1/30/01 2:48:29 PM
If God is competent to say what He wants and His silence is not a "divine oversight" then harmony is excluded. Harmony as we know it and lust for it is about as young and divisive as intruments -- crashing into "worship" in the 1800s and originating in "revivalism" with a strong Voodoo component. Harmony as an external thing means "abrading or grinding you into powder" which was the goal of "twanging" a bowstring in your direction. The word SOP is related.
The "square" psalms of Watts carry out the teaching job without introducing the destructive stuff of modern harmony which at times has four different groups, singing four different sets of words, at four different times to four different tunes.
Maybe if "a cappella" (ala the Pope's castrated boy singers) churches repented and returned to TEACHING THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN rather than SINGING CCM (circa 1860) then the instrumentalists would lose their AUTHORITY to "go thou and do likewise."
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RE: Is Music Really Dirty?
Zoom 3,
Vocal music is authorized, singing harmoniously is still vocal music, therefore singing harmoniously is authorized.
That can't be said of mechanical instruments of music in worship to God.
zoomer3 posted on 1/30/01 4:42:03 PM
The word "melody" in the Greek is not a musical word. And melody is not harmony. EXTERNAL MELODY speaks of grinding a person into a fine powder in warfare. It is derived from Apollo's "twanging bowstring sending 'singing' arrows" to LITERALLY abrade the enemy to death. That is why Paul's DIRECT COMMAND is to leave the melody in the heart where it can work on our own spirit. See the meaning of external melody as destructive and related to the SOP Jesus ground up for Judas whose Judas Bag was for carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments.
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RE: Is Music Really Dirty?
Psalm 33:1-3 David writes, "Sing joyfully to the Lord, you righteous; it is fitting for the upright to praise him. Praise the Lord with the harp; make music to him on the ten-stringed lyre. Sing to him a new song; play skillfully, and shout for joy." I kind of get the idea that God likes the instruments, especially those played skillfully (no bad musicians, please)
But you said that David said that. Is there any hint from God saying: "I just love that?" Significantly, you picked the only instrumental psalm which does not have a negative, bone-crushing sense of despair.
Second, David was not a priest nor even a Levite. He was a shepherd and king "like the nations" and if one wants to skip around with the lambs we have no objection. However, many of the instruments were not permitted in the temple. David and all of the kings were added when the elders fired God and demanded a king like the nations so that they could worship like the nations. So beware of the Monarchy which was designed to carry out the punishment for the mortal sin of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.
Third, the music was limited to or around the central, like the nations temple. It was played only by Levites, only during or associated with animal sacrifices, and the "people" or congregation was excluded "outside the camp" or gates.
So, the Jewish people never sang congregationally with instruments as "an act of worship." Music does have the ability to "take away the keys to knowledge" so that we might not have caught on.
The Synagogue had no instruments nor praise service.
The early church had no instruments nor praise service.
Alfred Edersheim, a converted Jew, makes the message plain.
After Jesus died on the cross, God no longer liked the sound of the harp, is that your position? God changed? But God doesn't change, does He?
There is not a shred of evidence that God ever LIKED the sound of the harp. In fact, the SOUND of the harp is a SYMBOLof those who have refused to listen to the Words of God. See some notes on Amos
Click to here the heresy from Lipscomb that THERE'S NOTHING WRONG with the worship in Amos and Isaiah 5: they just had a bad mental attitude when a father and son went into the same temple prostitute: harp- playing holy whores.
The HARP like the name of ALL musical instruments and ALL musical terms related to perversion and pollution:
"The name of psaltery entered Christian literature in the 3rd century B.C. translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint where, in the Psalms, nebel was translated psalterion. Thus, Nebuchadnezzar's idolatrous ensemble included the Aramic psantria. Notice, also, that the book of Psalms has also become known as the Psalter (or psalterium), from the hymns sung with this harp. Source
Psaltery reminds us of a NEW WINESKIN religion which is made of THAT WHICH DIED OF ITSELF:
Nebel (h5035) neh'-bel; or neÇbel nay'-bel; from 5034; a skin- bag for liquids (from collapsing when empty); hence a vase (as similar in shape when full); also a lyre (as having a body of like form): - bottle, pitcher, psaltery, vessel, viol
Nabel (h5034) naw-bale'; a prim. root; to wilt; gen. to fall away, fail, faint; fig. to be foolish or (mor.) wicked; causat. to despise, disgrace: - disgrace, dishonour, lightly esteem, fade (away, - ing), fall (down, -ling, off), do foolishly, come to nought, * surely, make vile, wither..
Nabal (h5036) naw-bawl'; from 5034; stupid; wicked (espec. impious): - fool (-ish, -ish man, -ish woman), vile person.
This has the same meaning as the FAMILIAR SPIRIT of the Witch.
> Owb (h178) obe; from the same as 1 (appar. through the idea of prattling a father's name); prop. a mumble, i. e. a water-skin (from its hollow sound); hence a necromancer (ventriloquist, as from a jar): - bottle, familiar spirit.
Paul connects lifeless instruments or "carnal weapons" to the soothsaying or getting a REAL message from the angels:
THOUGH I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 1Cor 13:1
Sounding:
Echeo (g2278) ay-kheh'-o; from 2279; to make a loud noise, i.e. reverberate: - roar, sound.
Echos (g2279) ay'-khos; of uncert. affin.; a loud or confused noise ("echo"), i.e. roar: fig. a rumor: - fame, sound.
Brass:
Chalkos (g5475) khal-kos'; perh. from 5465 through the idea of hollowing out as a vessel (this metal being chiefly used for that purpose); copper (the substance, or some implement or coin made of it): - brass, money.
This was a brass or bronze echo chamber used by witches or by the military to frighten the enemy.
If God had ever authorized instruments this might be a fact. However there were many chances to associate instruments with ignoring His Word. But the first premise is really false and therefore the conclusions are false.
Take out time to read: Job 21; Isaiah 5; Ezekiel 33 and Amos 5, 6 and 8. Then look at the story of the King of Tyre coming equiped with musical instruments with which he (she as Lucifer) sang the song of the prostitute. Take a look of the king of Babylon as an agent of Lucifer and try to see him and his harps lying on a bed of maggots. Then see his/her end in Revelation 18.
The clergy tried to pollute or triumph over Jesus by piping to try to induce the Dionysus, feminine singing and dancing. Jesus was not to be polluted by Judas and the clergy (Psalm 41). Augustine has some good comments here.
And when the female musical worship team tried to exorcize the demons of the dead girl, Jesus "put them out more or less violently."
Jesus hymned a psalm in connection with Passover which means that He chanted the revealed Word of God.
Scriptural silence does not mean "no" and there's nothing in the Bible to support that.
Try seeing that the Word of God is not silent about music. That is a fiction caused by too much music. Then grasp th universal Biblical law of Silence expounded by the Bible. But then only rarely has one read the Old Testament.
"Speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible's silent" is not in my Bible. That's one of the man-made traditions which we hold to that makes the Church of Christ as much of a denomination as any Christian sect. Who said that anyway Alexander Campbell?
The Bible and ALL scholarship teaches that PRINCIPLE. Too bad that we get out information from sermons and not from READING.
This sounds like a Shelly-Ditto-Head. Well, just read the Bible and the concensus of every major church "father" or theologian to see the facts. Men like Isaiah knew the fact and that, by the way, was before the time of Alexander Campbell
I will raise them up a Prophet (Jesus) from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Deut 18:18
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. Deut 18:19
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name,
which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. Deut 18:20
Jesus understood the law of silence:
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. John 8:28
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; John 8:31
Can you feature "A Jesus of the Whiney, Piney heart" falling for the sucker bait that God's silence is His divine mistake?
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. John 12:49
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. John 12:50
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63
So, one can only hope that silence-haters really are "Christs for our age."
One should have learned that lesson from Genesis. And, by the way, the word serpent is related to musical instruments. Didn't know that?
What about whistling, clapping, shouting, humming and snapping? No instruments there. Are they authorized or unauthorized?
We can pray that God has a JUVENILE COURT for those who must be forgiven for their ignorance about the meaning of worship which literally is defined as the way a dog fawns or licks its masters boots.
If Jesus walked into your "church" would you whistle, clap, shout, hum and snap your fingers? ALL of the teams would do that but worship means REVERENCE for God and RESPECT for the feelings of others. But musicians are on a DRUG HIGH and the trip of the "idolatry of talent" will probably have them try to sing and clap their way out of hell.
"We know something of the Egyptian music through Pfeiffer who says that: "The harp was the favorite instrument of the Egyptians. In the temple of Hatshepsut at Karnak there is a relief of a blind harper." During the Twelfth Dynasty society existed much as it did in Israel when Amos warned the people about their false worship and disregard for the social ill. For instance, in Egypt The Song of the Harper says--
"Increase still more the good things which you possess,
and stop worrying. Do what you feel inclined to do and will give you pleasure.
Enjoy yourself while you are here, and don't worry until the end comes.
Enjoy each day to the fullest. For be sure no one can take what he possesses with him,
and no one who has passed can return." (Fairservis, The Kingdoms of the Nile, p. 118).
Clapping was the universal way of showing contempt for the losers. And no where was this more prevelant than in the contests of flute players or other Greek musicians. If it isn't in the Christian teaching it is not authorized. This is how the Israelites learned the clapping skill in Egypt:
This is what happened at Mount Sinai when they "rose up to play" where PLAY or SPORT means musical idolatry.
"Such they introduce the effeminate Sardanapalus, king of the Assyrians, sitting on a couch with his legs up, fumbling at his purple robe, and casting up the whites of his eyes.
Women that follow such practices, by their looks offer themselves for prostitution. "For the light of the body is the eye," says the Scripture, by which the interior illuminated by the shining light appears. Fornication in a woman is in the raising of the eyes.
"The traditional founder of Tarsus was Sardanapalus, who was worshipped, along with Semiramis, with licentious rites which resembled those of the Feast of Tabernacles. Paul had probably witnessed this feastival, and had seen, at the neighboring town of Anchiale, the statue of Sardanapalus, represented as snapping his fingers, and with the inscription upon the pedestal,
'Eat, drink, enjoy thyself. The rest is nothing." (Vincent, p. 278)
Nothing is said of harmony in the scriptures, nothing is said of instruments. Yet, we approve of adding harmony(a man-made tradition) to please us, yet balk at the addition of musical instruments(a man-made tradition) to please us. But, obviously David thought God liked instrumental music, but you say God lost His taste for it.
There is something said about HARMONY. It is the word SUMPHONIA which means "sounding together" and it was practiced in pagan temples and festivals and brothels.
This is why there was no true harmony in churches until secular composers found out that ten fingers fit the keyboard of the pipe organ. Harmony was as divisive as instruments because the Christian ast is not music but teaching. At 70 I will gladly give up the mind-abrading effect of harmony which seems so attractive to the children playing games in the marketplace.
Our method of singing is a synthetic pipe organ called "organum." We can cheat and be legal as long as we are vocal only. But the point has nothing to do with music but with teaching the inspired Word.
Flintstone posted on 1/30/01 7:09:35 PM
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RE: Is Music Really Dirty?
Zoom,
God desired the smell of animal flesh burning on an open fire in worship at one time, but not now. God allowed multiple wives, demanded circumcision, segmented one tribe to be His priests, but not now. Bible authority for instrumental music, humming, whistling, etc. in Christian worship is absent. No church in the first century ever used it. Neither the Lord not His inspired spokesmen ever sanctioned it. This has been proven numerous times down through the years, and now a generation arises saying, "We like it, we want it, and we are going to have it." Remember Jereboam, the son of Nebat, who caused Israel to sin. And the children of Israel who desired a king so that they could be like the nations around them. They got what they wanted, but realized too late they didn't really want what they asked for.
That is a fact: Ezekiel says that it included "worship like the nations" and that was part of the leading them into captivity ritual.
And there is no doubt that the music came from "the nations" and not from God. Even the instruments often have Greek names teaching their destructive roots and the musical guilds have Canaanite names because they were not related to the worship of the people.
"From (the Uraritic text) come references to a class of Temple personnel designated by the term serim, who exercised functions similar to those of the Hebrew singers during the monarchy and later times. Some of the servants of David who were designated in 1 Kings 4:31 by (a) term meaning 'aboriginal' or 'native sons,' and who possessed Canaanite names such as Heman, Chalcol, and Darda, were engaged in various forms of musical activity. As such they were described by the phrase 'sons of Mahol,' a Hebrew term closely related to (the Greek), used of a semi-circular area in which the Greek chorus danced, and meaning 'members of the orchestral guild.' A further reflection of this musical interest became apparent when Megiddo was excavated and the treasure room of the royal palace was uncovered.
From this area was recovered a plaque inlaid with ivory, depicting a royal personage seated on a throne. He was drinking from a small bowl, and was being entertained by a court musician who stood before him plucking the strings of a lyre." (Harrison, R. K., Introduction to the Old Testament, Eerdmans, p. 335, see p. 411).
Robyn Guidicy posted on 1/31/01 12:53:55 AM
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RE: Is Music Really Dirty?
Have had this discussion myself just recently in the Southern Hemisphere. One person talking apples and another talking pears.
This is what happens when the top "preachers" cut away all of the apple and just leave a "core gospel" consisting of five facts about Jesus. The motive for cutting off the apple of doctrine is that they are then able to add back their own applesauce doctrines.
zoomer3 posted on 1/31/01 1:07:48 AM
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RE: Is Music Really Dirty?
Well, you know Jesus made the sacrifice once and for all, and the NT is also very "vocal" on the other issues you mentioned as well, yet is "silent" on the instrumental issue. Now, what gives us the right to make our contrived mission statement about "speaking where the Bible speaks and being silent where the Bible's silent", a law for the world? It's as though this was handed down to Moses as the 11th commandment.
We usher in the speaker to the link above to show that from the Garden of Eden onward the Scriptures and leaders of all religious movements had that slogan. It was not contrived by the Campbells but then if your teachers are not telling you the truth you might just repeat it and incur their guilt. The Scriptures fairly scream out warnings against music from beginning to the end in Revelation 18: the preachers simply lie to you.
So all vocal is good, including harmony, which is not mentioned or authorized. Now what about the new advent of "praise teams" in the C of C? That's all vocal music? Does you congregation approve of and have song services lead by a group of singers rather than the authorized one man waving his arm? Or is this too unauthorized (like harmony)?
No, complex harmony is just as DAMAGING to the body, sould and emotions as instruments. Harmony includes the "dog barks" or "water drips" which drive you crazy when you switch from one note to the next. However, the mangled sound MASKS the destructive, anxiety- creating noise so that it KILLS YOU SOFTLY and you think that it is fun. Satan is good at that.
The musical worship teams is a heretical presumption. They claim the power to "lead the worshipers into the presence of God." Some even claim, ala Tower of Babel, that when they sing and dance God uses them as a platform upon which He lands. That was the fact in ancient paganism where the musical performers were the harem of the gods:
Women's singing was a vital part of all pagan worship. In very early times women became priestly singers of the gods in the temple.
"Women and girls from the different ranks of society were proud to enter the service of the gods as singers and musicians. The understanding of this service was universal: these singers constituted the 'harem of the gods'." (End of Quasten)
The olden testament which you can get a Phd without speaks eloquently about "music." Both the word SINGER and PLAYER relates directly to the prostitutes plying their trade to the returning army, ark- bearing processionals and at times EVEN in the temple. The male SINGERS and PLAYERS around the temple are identified as SODOMITES. The Levitical SOUNDERS were in the court where they slaughtered and burned the TYPE of Lord Jesus Christ. This was never in the Holy Place as a type of the church of Christ.
What about deaconesses? Those are authorized in the NT. Phoebe? Do you have deaconesses at your church?
The word "deaconess" did not exist in the Greek language. So, betcha that Phoebe was a servant. Yes, we have servants in our church but they are not official. The RM leaders treated the "Deaconess" as the widow in deed: older sisters who were given help in return for helping women in the baptistry or going with the preacher in the dangerous grounds of counseling young women.
Does your church raise holy hands, also an authorized activity in the NT?
Churches don't raise holy hands. The punch line is not "hands" but the word holy. Anytime one raises hands to God they don't wave them in the air like a girls game. Rather, they turn their palms up like a hand-shake to say: "I am innocent." This may happen in public but more often in private. Only the high priest was authorized to raise his hands above his shoulder. Click for more evidence.
Do you elders lay hands on and pray for the sick, also a sanctioned activity in the 1st century Church.
If you will read carefully you will find that the first-century elders or "pastor-teachers" were spiritually gifted. Most elders don't do it now because they know that they don't have the power of healing. The message was that a sick person could call them and I seriously doubt that they were "in church."
My point is we don't do everything to the letter of the law in the C of C, but a lot of times we talk like we do and portrait this image that we have the perfect and ideal format, just the way God ordained it to be, and that simply is NOT the case.
But all of the "letters of the law" which have been adduced were not commands for the collective assembly. So, a false premise leads to false conclusions. Even if one of these were true, saying "your'e another one" does not give much authority to add instruments which are clearly condemned for public performance in worship.
Like everyone else, we hold fast to the things of the NT that are comfortable for us and let go of the things that are not. You know I've come to realize that we can conveniently hop, skip through the Bible with the best of them.
But praise and thanks be to God that Christ's blood makes us whole and worthy to come into the presence of God to offer up our lowly and less-than-adequate songs of worship in harmony or unison and with or without a harp.
Jesus said that worship is IN SPIRIT or in the human MIND. This is the Holy Place where we "boldly come before the throne of God" but just ONE priest at a time. The old PLACE at buildings is out for WORSHIP. Paul's worship word is usually to GIVE HEED. That means to THINK about something intensly. You simply cannot do that when the children are singing, clapping and doing the "gay" snap.
Any Levitical "musician" who dared to enter the Most Holy place even to clean out the garbage would have been executed.
The Holy Place symbols speak of learning (the seven spirits of God), the Bread and prayer which is PERSONAL. This was much like the SYNAGOGUE which "had no praise service." It was like the church of Christ into which ANY MUSICIAN either singer or player would be executed. The church "had no praise service" because it was A SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE and not a worship center.
Worship (in the mind) which takes place in a COLLECTIVE sense is absolutey disabled by singers, clappers, snappers or musicians: you cannot think about and therefore WORSHIP both God and the TEAM at the same time.
The BLOOD OF CHRIST was typically shed OUTSIDE THE CAMP in the temple COURT YARD. The Levitical sounders performed HARD BONDAGE while the animals were being killed and burned.
Therefore, to bring the MUSICIANS into the Holy Place was not done by the Jews or even in the most vile pagan temples where the Holy and Most Holy places were OFF LIMITS to the Musicians. That means that even pagan MUSICIANS were not allowed to come into the presence of their "gods."
How vile to bring the musicians who only have LEGALISTIC, LEVITICAL authority into the place of church or education which cannot take place with music. And how utterly a terminal sin to suggest that music or musicans can bring you into GOD'S HOLY PRESENCE.
One can do whatever one wishes but without Biblical authority and contrary to the prescribed "instrument" of preaching and teaching using Psalms or other inspired literature.
Each believer is a virtual high priest as related to Judaism. This means that only one person at a time can come boldly before the throne of Grace. The most holy place only has room for me and God or you and God. Others cannot intrude and that is why the direct command or Jesus was "enter into the closet" or "worship in spirit" which is in the mind which corresponds to the Most Holy Place and why John was "in the spirit" on the Lord's day.
The musical instruments could never go into the holy precints. And the common people were not allowed in the presence of the sacrifices with noise-making instruments but were put outside the "camp" and the gates were closed. This is why during the dedication of the temple, when the loud noise (not music) was sounded the temple was so filled with darkness that the priests could not minister. Not to worry. The people "outside the gates" could pray to God and God heard from heaven.
Flintstone posted on 1/31/01 9:26:14 AM
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RE: Is Music Really Dirty?
Zoomer 3,
Since authority is based upon what is said and not what is not said, where is the authority for mechanical instruments of music in Christian worship? The authority for such is in the same place as substituting cornbread and buttermilk for unleavened bread and fruit of the vine, or sprinkling for immersion, or walnut for gopher wood. There is none.
And that is a fact understood by all but the 18th century liberals who decided that the gospel was just a "core" and we can do whatever it is we want to do--spite of hell.
zoomer3 posted on 1/31/01 12:10:13 PM
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RE: Is Music Really Dirty?
So your congregation has deaconesses? And they allow the raising of Holy hands? What about all of the other things the 1st century church did that we do not do? They met in homes, we meet in unauthorized buildings.
They shared the wealth, having all things in common.
Those who had property in Jerusalem fed and housed those who were visitors. This is not a command for "community" or cummunism. Later,
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Acts 5:3
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. Acts 5:4
Do you? Also, do you acknowledge I Corinthians 12 and 14? Now there's some authorization for you. I would doubt any of that occurs with any frequency in your congregation. Am I right? You see, we take what we want and we leave (with lame excuses) what we do not want.
These passages are "what not to do" in the assembly. Pavoratti comes into our assembly and says: "I see that you are all singing opera. I wish that you cold all sing Opera. But not everyone has the gift, do they?"
Would you take that as a compliment? Only if God is still hiding the word in parables to those who don't love the truth.
syma531 posted on 1/31/01 2:24:41 PM
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RE: Is Music Really Dirty?
It also says that Satan has come to steal kill and destroy, and that God has created all things. I take this to mean that Satan is incapable of creating anything on his own.
How about God creating lies?
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. John 8:43
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Jn.8:44
And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. John 8:45
Remember that Jubal was the father of those who handle musical instruments. Well, handle means "without authority." And this same Satan came into Jubal and taught him.
Jude quotes the book of Enoch which is also often quoted by Jesus and others about 128 times in the New Testament. The ten thousand saints which come in judgment specificially come because Satan taught the children how to seduce people away from the Word of God using musical instruments and mixed-sex choirs. Don't believe it? That is ok with me because if you don't then perhaps you shouldn't. Begin here with Enoch. And the Book of Adam and Eve here. This was the universal understanding among the Jews prior to and following the time of Christ.
There is no other tradition but that Satan created instruments to alter the mind.
Thus, all musical instruments were created by God, as were many other artistic forms of expression including art, literature, dance, etc. We Christians have stood by far too long and let Satan pervert our arts. It is time that we redeem the arts.
Is this something like Rubel Shelly baptizing Santa?
To claim that God invented and enjoys musical instruments flies in the face of encyclopedias of information with no Biblical support. The Holy Spirit always draws a sharp line between "the trumpets of God" and the "instruments of David."
See the facts on Chronicles 29 in General and Hezekiah's "Stopping the Plague" ceremony.
All things are to be done to the glory of God, to me it stands to reason that God would not create anything that could not be used to his glory.
Only lawful things can be done to the glory of God. Not all things.
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name (authority) of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. Col.3:17
I suppose that God created tall buildings, also. And if so He must have intended for us to jump off. How about alcohol? Well, alcohol is never created in the cluster but in the vat as a product of decay. I understand that shark meat needs to be burried for two or three weeks in the sand. So, suppose that God intended that we eat shark. Tobacco has some redeeming value but did God invent the pipe?
And his brothers name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ. Gen 4:21
Taphas (h8610) taw-fas'; a prim. root; to manipulate, i. e. seize; chiefly to capture, wield; spec. to overlay; fig. to use unwarrantably: - catch, handle, (lay, take) hold (on, over), stop, * surely, surprise, take.