1 Timothy 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables Old wives tales, or old wives fables. 1 Timothy 4:7: If Scripture means what it says then to be an official DEACONESS or any stand-up, speak-out role for women is DELIBERATELY VIOLATING Paul's rules. Because of many concerned people -- usually Godly women -- I have agreed to revise some of my notes to show that violating Scripture occupies more time and money than evangelism and serving the needy which is the real role of men, women and clergy.See that Miriam was NOT a prophetess or revealer for God. She was a prototypical usurper of males who speak the Word. She is the type of effeminate males who do the same thing.
Rubel Shelly John York: Women in God's Service.
"There is no other tradition" in history but that "music was introduced by demons or demigods." The fact is that Lucifer caused the fall of the angels; she came into the garden as the "singing and harp-playing prostitute." She was the king/queen of Babylon and the end-time Babylon prostitute worship.
The Bible is absolute: music was a MARK which said "we will not listen to the Words of God." There is no MUSIC word ever used in the spiritual worship of a Spirit God. It is all fabricated to 'bleed off worship due only to God.'
Music CAN HAVE NO role to play because Jesus built an ekklesia or synagogue or school of the Bible. You cannot tolerate charismatic worship teams in the middle of a class where God is doing the speaking. Please note that music IS charismatic and charismatic had the universal connection in ancient paganism with sodomoy normally in the form of pederasty. That is why "clergy" is addicted to little children.
There are really only two choices: First, we can believe that the Bible was never or is not now normative for Christian faith and practice. If this view is taken then it simply doesn't matter what one does in the name of performance worship. This view must be followed to appoint women as deaconesses, public speakers, teachers or "anointers." However, in order to survive in the realm of the casual Bible reader, these usurpers of Christ's authority use and misuse Scripture to make it mean something opposite to what it says -- and most people don't know the difference
Second, however, is the view that Scripture is both inspired and a proper model for demonstrating God's values before the watching world. If this view is correct then women who permit themselves to be used as Deaconesses or any stand-over (non-sedantary) or speak-up role are deliberately violating the principles Paul presented as inspired of the Spirit Christ.
Because Jesus stood to read the Scriptures and then sat to explain their meaning; and Paul silenced all in Corinth who were not inspired singers or speakers, Paul probably meant for the same principle to apply to men.
Jubilee 99, like Jubilee 98, will continue to promote lifting holy hands and women musical worship teams standing over or presiding over or "pastoring" the assembly. This will run its course but it will disturb a lot of people with enough winds to navigate without anyone blowing up a lot more.
Paul wrote Timothy that men should lift holy hands (as opposed to unholy hands) in public prayer. Men is specifically male and not female. When he said, "likewise concerning" he was defining what women should be doing at the same time. He did not give women permission to "likewise" raise holy hands in the sense of leading the prayer. Everyone has the right to literally or spiritually bow and open their palms upward toward God or whatever posture they like.
The missing ingredient is that lifting holy hands is the Biblical prelude to opening the mind to hear God through His word. Therefore, lifting open hands in prayer and teaching the Word publically go together. God already knows what we know and therefore does not need a counselor or adviser. Therefore, Jesus taught a very simple prayer. The vital part of prayer is to listen for His whispered silence. Karen Armstrong so so perfectly of 1 Kings 19:
"Unlike the pagan deities, Yahweh was not in any of the forces of nature but in a real apart. He is experienced in the scarcely perceptible timbre of a tiny breeze in the paradox of a voiced silence." (Armstrong, Karen, A History of God, p. 27)
Jesus would say that worship is "in spirit and in truth." The Lord is in His Holy Temple let all of the earth keep silent before Him.
Prayer would therefore not be a time to "speak to God" (1Cor 14:2) which was "speaking into the air" (14:9). There simply would be no place for arguing with God because the Word was directly revealed to an inspired prophet or read "as it had been delivered" by one of the elders.
Lest they pervert the Word, Paul followed up as in his other letters by denying women the right to teach or exercise their pecularly female authority over the assembly. Attractive, talented women cannot stand before the assembly in any capacity without exercising sexual power. Those who want to attract customers like a pied piper to become dues-paying members know it and use it and abuse it. This also applies to effeminate men who mimic the charismatic ways of women. If he is attractive to both men and women then we should worry. No Biblical character was ever applauded, honored or became "keynote speakers" all around the country who taught the Bible as it has been delivered. They were, without exception, despised and rejected of men and perhaps with the exception of John all died a violent crucifixion-type execution.
Paul's restriction is for those short periods when both men and women are gathered for collective edification. At other times anyone can come before God with prayer because they are the only ones who know how to pray for themselves
If there be in the land famine, if there be pestilence, blasting, mildew, locust, or if there be caterpiller; if their enemy besiege them in the land of their cities; whatsoever plague, whatsoever sickness there be; 1 Kings 8:37
What prayer and supplication soever be made by any man, or by all thy people Israel,
which shall know every man the plague (affliction) of his own heart,
and spread forth his hands (palms) toward this house: 1 Kings 8:38Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways,
whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;) 1 Kings 8:39
The musical Levites with their noise actually disabled the inner physical temple and prevented the priests from serving God as it was filled with darkness. Isn't that amazing! Job, Isaiah, Ezekiel and Amos show that music is the method of those trying to cut off communication with God. Indeed, the light is shut off from heaven but only to those making the noise.
However, the people outside the gates lifted their own palms to God and prayed. They literally bypassed the priests and their temple made to "house" God. God heard the people's prayers from heaven well above and beyond the priests, musical Levites and the physical temple!
There is no evidence that male or female "led" them in their prayerful worship to God.
Paul simply warns that if you are going to pray publically you had better not babble but pray with the mind so that the person can agree with you or not.
Paul wrote to Titus:
Since an overseer (Elder-Teacher) is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless--not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Titus 1:7NIV
Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. Titus 1:8
He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. Titus 1:9
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 1 Timothy 3:2
Paul said to the Corinthians that "I would be pleased if all of you could speak in tongues" (languages as a gift) but to the greatest degree" I would like for you to teach because:
Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? 1 Corinthians 14:6
If men do not usurp Christ's authority through His Word then women will be less tempted to usurp the role of a very few men allowing her "family" to starve to spiritual death for lack of the word. Job, Isaiah, Ezekiel and Amos equate musical worship to ignoring the Word of God:
And the songs of the temple shall be howlings (Yalal or wailing tones like halal or praise) in that day, saith the Lord God: there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence (finally holding their peace). Amos 8:3
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: Amos 8:11
And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it. Amos 8:12
Why did Christ put the teaching leadership in the hands of senior, qualified males? It was because:
For there are many unruly (insubordinate, not put under) and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Titus 1:10
Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucres sake. Titus 1:11
Among the pagans, especially the Hittites, the composers and singers of songs as magical incantation were effeminate males or the "old women." When they died they were virtually worshiped like a goddess and their songs were put into the "catalog" or song book. This practice continues as we honor a composer and sing her songs while, necessarily, ignoring the songs and sermons of God.
Therefore, Paul warned Timothy:
Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 1 Timothy 4:7
It is important tounderstand "godless" and "old wives tales."
Godless is from the Greek: Bebelos (g952) beb'-ay-los; from the base of 939 and belos, (a threshold); accessible (as by crossing the door-way), i.e. (by impl. of Jewish notions) heathenish, wicked: - profane (person)But shun profane and vain babblings (speaking in tongues: empty and artificial sound): for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 2 Timothy 2:16 (This was part of Gnosticism)
Baskaino (g940) bas-kah'ee-no; akin to 5335; to malign, i.e. (by extens.) to fascinate (by false representations): - bewitch.
Dodona: ancient sanctuary of the chief Greek god, Zeus, in Epirus, Greece; the ceremonies held there had many remarkable and abnormal features. The earliest mention of it is in the Iliad (xvi, 234), where its priests are called the Selloi (or Helloi) and are described as "of unwashen feet, sleeping on the ground." The description suggests worshipers or servants of an earth goddess or of some chthonian power with whom they kept in continual contact, day and night. Homer (Odyssey, xiv, 327) was also the first to mention the oracle at Dodona.
A tree (or trees) was reputed to give oracles, presumably through the rustling of its leaves and other sounds. Herodotus, but no earlier writer, mentions priestesses, whom he describes as the givers of the oracles, doubtless under some kind of inspiration from the god.
A further peculiarity of Dodona was the "bronze," a large gong set vibrating at every breeze by a scourge held in the hand of a figure standing over it;
the persistent ringing passed into a Greek proverbial phrase--Khalkos Dodones ("Brass of Dodona")--
for a continuous talker who has nothing to say. Britannica Members
"A famous oracle in Epi'ros, and the most ancient of Greece. It was dedicated to Zeus (Jupiter), and situate in the village of Dodna.
The tale is, that Jupiter presented his daughter Theb with two black pigeons which had the gift of human speech. Lemprière tells us that the Greek word peleiai (pigeons) means, in the dialect of the Eprots, old women; so that the two black doves with human voice were two black or African women. One went to Libya, in Africa, and founded the oracle of Jupiter Ammon; the other went to Eprus and founded the oracle of Dodna. We are also told that plates of brass were suspended on the oak trees of Dodona, which being struck by thongs when the wind blew, gave various sounds from which the responses were concocted. It appears that this suggested to the Greeks the phrase Kalkos Dod ns (brass of Dodona), meaning a babbler, or one who talks an infinite deal of nothing. Bartleby
Because Paul was inspired and a great scholar, he filled his record with signs which point us to the Old Testament and to pagan religious practices. Whether he intends to point to this passage or not it is our key to look at the meaning of leaping over the threshold:
And it shall come to pass in the day of the Lords sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the kings children, and all such as are clothed (putting on of) with strange apparel (vestment). Zep 1:8 (Note: the musical performers were often strange or foreign women)
In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold (from pethen or serpent, adder), which fill their masters houses with violence and deceit. Zep 1:9
Therefore neither the priests of Dagon, nor any that come into Dagons house, tread on the threshold of Dagon in Ashdod unto this day. 1 Samuel 5:5
Paul may have connected this to the pagan worship in Corinth where women were tempted to get involved with the booms and clangs of music. The terms in 13:1 are identical to the bronze vases or the "familiar spirit" or the musical nebel as magical devices to attract or repel the demons or gods:
"The priest stands on the threshold (of the temple) and awakens the god calling to him in the Egyptian language." This is how Arnobius mocks the ritual of Isis: 'Why these revels you sing each morning to awaken him, accompanying your songs on the flute? Do the gods go to sleep, then, that they need to be awakened?' At Delphi the Thyads went to waken the young Dionysus, just as at Rhodes Bacchus woke gently from his sleep to the sound of the hydraulic organ." (de Vaux, p. 246).
Does this fit the urge to use music "to catch the Spirit when He is near" or to "lead the worshipers into the presence of God?"
The Jews may have tried to avoid this. However, the threshold and music were always points of dangerous magic:
"The most probable answer seem to be that the chiming of the holy bells was thought to drive far off the envious and wicked spirits who lurked about the door of the sanctuary, ready to pounce on and carry off the richly apparelled minister as he stepped across the threshold in the discharge of his sacred office. At least this view, which has found favour with some modern scholars, is strongly supported by analogy; for it has been a common opinion, from the days of antiquity downwards, that demons and ghosts can be put to flight by the sound of metal, whether it be the musical jingle of little bells, the deep-mouthed clangour of great bells, the shrill clash of cymbals, the booming of gongs, or the simple clink and clank of plates of bronze or iron knocked together or struck with hammer or sticks. Hence, in rites of exorcism it has often been customary for the celebrant either to ring a bell which he holds in his hand, or wear attached to some part of his person a whole nest of bells, which jingle at every movement he makes." (Frazer, James George, Folk-Lore in the Old Testament, p. 417-8, Macmillian, 1923)
This urge is still expressed as a musical worship facilitator who can help "lead the worshipers into the presence of God."
Old Wives Tales Old Wives Fables The myths or old wives tales were especially associated with the pagan mysteries at which women prophesiers or singer-musicians presided. They ruled over the males (visiting, seeking customers) to bring them into the presence of the gods and onto their beds in back. These myths usually composed by the women were "for sale" stories made up to help the worshiper into the presence of the gods or to cure family problems of find lost goats. The worshiper must remain absolutely silent while the "team" performs the myth with the expectation that some great sound, sight or feeling will be revealed by the "prophetesses"Muthos (g3454) moo'-thos; perh. from the same as 3453 (through the idea of tuition); a tale, i.e. fiction ("myth"): - fable.
Mueo (g3453) moo-eh'-o; from the base of 3466; to initiate, i.e. (by impl.) to teach: - instruct
Musterion (g3466) moos-tay'-ree-on; from a der. of muo, (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue (babbling) speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit (in his/her mind) he speaketh mysteries. 1 Corinthians 14:2
"god" is without the article and theos includes pagan gods. The Corinthian women were speaking "mysteries" out of their own "spirit" and were, therefore, just speaking into the air. The god or goddess of the air was Juno worshipped by the women who "got drunk" on vapors or airs from a fissure in the ground and then hallucinated. Someone interpreted this speaking in tongues and sold it to you. Including the context which starts with demon worship in chapter 10 makes it certain that Paul was condemning pagan propheying (11:5) brought into the assembly (11:17f). It can be said of much music along with extreme speaking in tongues that:
"the condition is that of Ecstasy, the utterances are words or sounds of prayer or praise but are not clear in meaning, and give the impression to the hearer of being mysteries or insane expressions."... This phenomenon seems to include sighs, groanings, shoutings, cries, and utterances either of disconnected words (such as Abba, hosanna, hallelujah, maranatha) or connected speech of a jubilating sort which impresses the observer as ecstatic prayer or psalmodic praise." (Schaff-Herzog, Speaking in Tongues, p. 36)
The worship in Corinth, Ephesus and Colosse before they became Christians was concerned with Dionysus or Bacchus. When Paul said: "don't get drunk with wine" but "sing" Biblical truth in the heart as you "speak" it to one another, he was warning of Bacchus worship which still appealed to certain members of the new body of Christ.
"Now Iamblichus (De Mysteriis, III.ix) goes into the matter of the so-called Corybantic and Bacchic 'frenzies' produced by musical instruments in the Mysteries of Ceres and Bacchus; and in his Life of Pythagoras (xxv) he, further, tells us that:
The whole Pythagoric school went through a course of musical training, both in harmony and touch, whereby, by means of appropriate chants,
they beneficially converted the dispositions of the soul to contrary emotions.
Donandar (duh-NAN-dahr) God of Music and Dance
"Donandar is the god of music and dance. His present-day worshippers include wayfaring minstrels, jugglers, musicians, actors, carnivals, dancers, and circuses.
"Candidates for priesthood in Donandar's cult must be master level with at least two entertainment skills, among other requirements. They have access to divine magic involving illusions and dance.
(Modern form: "To lead them into the presence of God.)
Position Responsibilities: This person will work with volunteer leaders, ministers and staff to coordinate the planning and presentation of worship activities. Sunday worship activities will reflect the diversity of background and worship styles unique to the Woodmont Hills membership. In addition, "seeker" style assemblies will be planned and presented at other times of the week using contemporary music, drama and teaching formats more familiar to the unchurched segment of our community.
Minimum of Bachelor's degree or equivalent experience in performing arts (music, drama, directing, theatrical programming).
You may think that you are not under the influence. However, the tingle in the chest, the blood coursing through your veins and even hair standing up on the back of your neck or the child chill is proof that instrumental or vocal music has put you into the frenzies. You will feel worse when the drug high wears off.
Click for more on Dionysus or Bacchus. Paul said that he was not one of those speakers trained in the Greek theater where drama was always religious.
The old wive's tales are from the Greek: The old wives were: Graodes (g1126) grah-o'-dace; from graus , (an old woman) and 1491; crone-like, i.e. silly: - old wives."Paul called the teachings 'profane' and 'fit only for old women,' a strong indication that women were the teachers. There isn't any doubt Jesus identified Jezebel as a false prophetess and teacher who taught heresies mixed with sexual immorality (Rev. 3:20). From the available information it can be deduced she was a Gnostic teacher." (Trombley, Who Says Women Can't Teach, p. 165)
Only widows who were older and pledged to remain unmarried were to serve the church for their support by visiting women whom the preachers were not permitted to counsel. Younger widows were more likely to fall into the pagan form of "preaching" from house to house among the women.
And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers (bubbling) also and busybodies (peddling magic and curious arts), speaking (includes preaching) things which they ought not. 1Tim 5:13
Does this say something about young, attractive men who are underemployed and therefore desert their flock, wander from meeting to meeting or church to church, bubbling over with exhilaration attractive to men and women, peddling their magic (cure your bad breath) and using their forum to preach lies?
Like Tele-marketers, they convince you that God has lead you to buy their books and tapes as a direct way to get the prophet into your problem and check book! And you love it!
In Hebrew "singing" is often associated with "traveling about like a harlot." These women gathered at the "places of meeting" such as the "motels" on the trade routes. The sold their own services or, as with Tyre and Babylon the commercial prostitutes, they served as "teams" to entice the customers with the hope of so deluding them that they could be seduced out of a good "contribution." The story of the Egyptian Wen Amon is perfect proof of the nature of Tyre and the Phoenicians.
However, the older, senior males were to teach because of knowledge and seniority. Furthermore, they were not likely to fall into speaking in tongues or madness. Paul opens up a teaching role fore women. However, by localizing it (in the homes) and directing it (to the young women) he explicitely excluded them (or young men) from the public teaching role:
BUT speak thou the things which become sound doctrine (that which has been delivered unto you) : Tit 2:1
(Speak) That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. Tit 2:2
(Speak That) The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; Tit 2:3
That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, Tit 2:4
To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. Tit 2:5
Paul wrote Timothy about the same thing and spoke of lifting holy hands:
This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; 1Ti 1:18
Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away, concerning faith have made shipwreck: 1Ti 1:19
Of whom is Hymenaeus (from god of weddings) and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme (villify man or God). 1Ti 1:20
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 1Ti 2:1
This is not a generic prayer. Rather, this is because God wants everyone saved-
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the (complete) knowledge of the truth. 1Ti.2:4
Man is: Anthropos (g444) anth'-ro-pos; (the countenance; from 3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being: - certain, man
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men (anthropos), the man Christ Jesus; 1Ti.2:5
Many preachers believe that they are "more equal" than anyone else in the congregation and will slap you across the face if you stumble onto their turf and utter anything Biblical. Therefore, they do not believe that anthropos means that all men are equal. Elevating women over men in the assembly, if we believe Plato, is a way to use women to abuse men who disagree but must conform to become members of the revised government or family.
When the Psalmist lifted his hands he was, first of all, asking and listening for God's message for which he thirsted:
I remember the days of old; I meditate on all thy works; I muse on the work of thy hands. Ps 143:5
I stretch (break apart) forth my hands (palms) unto thee: my soul thirsteth after thee, as a thirsty land. Selah. Ps 143:6
Cause me to hear thy lovingkindness in the morning; for in thee do I trust: cause me to know the way wherein I should walk; for I lift up my soul unto thee. Ps 143:8
Paul's description shows that he was not speaking of the ceremonial legalism of a man-led prayer. Rather, he was asking that the qualified men lift up their hands to God in a way quite different from the Pagan prophesying which the Women tried on the church. Furthermore, consistent with the Old Testament with which Paul was acquainted, when the elders lift their holy hands not tainted with pagan worship, he is describing a prelude to the elder delivering the Word "as it has been delivered" unless he is inspired:
Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity (truth). 1Ti 2:7
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy (not polluted by paganism) hands, without wrath (anger) and doubting (quarreling RSV). 1Ti.2:8
Men is: Aner (g435) an'-ayr; a prim. word [comp. 444]; a man (prop. as an individual male): - fellow, husband, man, sir.
Paul was never a preacher in the modern, distorted sense. Rather, he was the keruc or herald. He was like a Paul Revere as the "horseback" crier. His message could not be changed and he could not charge the recipient the "postage." He was also the doctrinal teacher.
Consistent with the synagogue which was little changed in Christianity, Paul was the ordained herald and teacher receiving his commission directly from Christ the Spirit. As such, he could appoint other men to faithfully repeat what he had already revealed by the Spirit. As in the synagogue, only men were to pray and teach. There is some evidence that men and women were separated to keep the sexual impulse from ruling over the meeting.
From the Old Testament we understand that males lifting their hands was not falling into a charismatic fit. It was symbolic of asking God for His word and that others would heed the message.
The danger was not in offering an "opening prayer" or "the main prayer." The danger was that the man become obsessed with himself and begin to "lift up" or "put on airs." This might happen during the second phase where the elder was to deliver Paul's message as it had been delivered to him. He was to remain an "ambassador" (senior teacher) and not even "peek" into the envelope containing the message. Once, the elder fell back into the charismatic prophesying usually practiced by women, God would pour out His wrath by making a fool of the teacher:
Wrath is:
Orge (g3709) or-gay'; from 3713; prop. desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by anal) violent passion
The danger of attractive pagan musical worship was that it helped manipulate the crowd into speaking or singing in tongues. As mind facilitators or manipulators they would not stomp around, slap the pulpit, foam and fume, lecture, and literally excite himself so much that he was out of control. He might even dispute with God by causing the "audience" to doubt that Christ revealed and Paul taught the "once for all" revelation of the Mind of Christ (the Spirit of God).
The other danger was that women who had been the performers in many pagan temples as prophetesses would rise out of their seats and begin to openly dialog and contend with the elder who might just be her husband.
Doubtings are internal or external. Lifting up the hands to God signals that you are opening His Word so that He can complete the dialog without the same form of charismatic ravings (mania) the women prophesiers were guilty of:
Dialogismos (g1261) dee-al-og-is-mos'; from 1260; discussion, i.e. (internal) consideration (by impl. purpose), or (external) debate: - dispute, doubtful (-ing), imagination, reasoning, thought.
Do all things without murmurings and disputings: Ph.2:14
Both men and women who were weak in the faith because they had been taught in the pagan temples. They were to be accepted in these assemblies but they were to be seated and silent. For instance, the women had been the prophesiers with song, dance and instrumental music associated with meat sold in the markets. These charismatic idolaters were to be received so that they could be taught: they were not the stand-up judges of what the assembled Christian church should be teaching:
HIM that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations (Diakrisis or judicial estimations). Ro 14:1
These stand-ups, mostly women it seems, give no evidence that they ever had the supernatural gift which Paul descibed to be able to dispute. This was attempting to discern whether the speaker was correct or not:
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 1Co.12:10
While the "law" may have applied to those places where they were transgressing it and is held not to fit the modern world, the rise of charismatic preaching without authority again restores the atmosphere of Corinth where women feel equally qualified to "stand up" and "speak out" in audible-visible roles.
This problem is eleminated when Christ and Paul become the authority and the elder-preacher becomes the herald just relaying the once-revealed word as it has been delivered to them.
While the elders were the only official pastor-teachers of each flock, they could, as in the Synagogue, call upon others to pray or read:
"One or the other of these elders led the congregation in prayer; one or the other of them read from Scripture; one or the other likewise taught ('in word and teaching,' 5:17) and prophesied (1Cor. 14), i. e., restated parts of the divine revelation." (Lenski, First Tim 2:8, p. 554)
Next, Paul uses the word likewise which is interpreted to mean that women have the same roles as men. The question then is: Are the women to likewise lift holy hands and pray and teach? This is the claim of those who will ignore God just to make what they want to do "Scriptural." Look at the passage in its context:
To the Men: I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy (not polluted by paganism) hands, without wrath (anger) and doubting (quarreling RSV). 1Ti.2:8
To the women: In like manner (even so) also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamedfacedness and sobriety (under control); not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 1Ti.2:9
Did not say: In like manner lead in prayer!! Probably, neither.
These two statements are not reciprocal: Women don't lead in prayer; men do not braid their hair!
The "Only Inspired Version" for feminist churches is the NIV. People get away with saying that it truthfully defends co-equal roles for men and women. However, as usual, they just say that knowing that most will never call their hand. Therefore, look at this passage in the NIV:
I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing. 1Ti 2:8NIV
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 1Ti 2:9NIV
The likewise has to do only with the conduct of both men and women and not the role played in "worship services."
The Lutheran, Lenski, makes the argument that if this means that:
The men pray while "lifting up holy (not polluted by paganism) hands, without wrath (anger) and doubting (quarreling RSV). 1Ti.2:8
Then likewise it means that:
The women pray while "adorning themselves in modest apparel, with shamedfacedness and sobriety (under control); not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 1Ti.2:9
First, we should note that women do not "adorn themselves" as an act of worship after they get to the assembly. Rather, this is the dress and attitude the women are to bring to church. They are not to lift holy hands as they adorn themselves.
Second: The grammar will not allow it, the text does not allow it and Paul immediately follows up so that we know that he does not allow it
Third, Paul uses the same word (likewise) in similar ways which proves too much:
Looking back to the similar doctrine in Titus the point is that Paul is to teach or exhort three classes of people all of whom have different responsibilities:
That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. Tit2:2
The aged women likewise (I also want), that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; Tit 2:3
That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, Tit 2:4
To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. Tit 2:5
Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded. Tit 2:6
Paul does not want women to do what the men do in addition to what women do. And he does not want the young men to do what the women do. He does not want the young men to be "obedient to their own husband" and likewise "be sober minded." That's just silliness looking for a proof-text to do what Paul said not to do, isn't it!
In addition to modest dress which will not exercise their authority (sexual) over the men, they are not to jump out of their seats or stand before the assembly with their eyes uplifted and hands waving at God and man singing as only talented singers can perform:
Shamefacedness is: Aidos (g127) ahee-doce'; perh. from 1 (as a neg. particle) and 1492 (through the idea of downcast eyes); bashfulness, i.e. (towards men), modesty or (towards God) awe: - reverence, shamefacedness.
Uncovered braided hair was to "catch souls" to "make them fly." This is explained by Paul in 1Cor 11:5 as "prophesying" which was singing with musical accompaniment. For details Click Here.
Paul could not sanely say "likewise I permit women to lift holy hands in leading prayer while adorning her hair and then say:
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 1Ti.2:12KJV
Paul has revealed the mind of Christ in two ways in public roles:
Positive: I do want men to lift holy hands in prayer where "men" is senior and male.
Negative: I do not permit the women to teach or usurp authority over the men.
As Paul continues, it is clear that he is not just speaking of "who leads the opening prayer." Rather, the one lifting holy hands is the one who must also teach without the confusion and disputing common to Pagan worship. He is opening his palms up as if reading the message from God.
In 2:8 the word "likewise" has as its antecedant "without wrath (anger) and doubting (quarreling RSV). That is, the elder is not to to be subject to censoring and questioning in the public assembly by his wife who believes that she has "accrued" authority from her husband's position. If the wife has some fight to pick she can do so at home.
Then Paul anticipates modern wrath and anger over his doctrine and puts the rule down again in specific terms:
In like manner (even so) also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamedfacedness and sobriety (sane or under control); not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array (Vesture); 1Ti.2:9
But which becometh women professing godliness (reverent worshiper) with good works. 1Ti 2:10
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 1Ti 2:11
False prophesying with magic and music has always been the particular power of women. Ezekiel warned against performing women prophesiers who hunted souls by ensnaring them. They used the length of hair and the length of veils and perhaps (we don't know) even magical pillows in the armholes which might have been shoulder pads to elevate their masculinity as they usurped the role of the true prophets.
Notice that, like Paul, Ezekiel addressed both the male prophesiers (often singers, dancer, players) and likewise addressed the women:
To the Men: And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord God. Ezekiel 13:9
To the Women: Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy (1Cor 11:5) out of their own heart (14:2) ; and prophesy thou against them, Ezekiel 13:17
And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs (veils) upon the head of every stature (length) to hunt souls Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you? Ezekiel 13:18
And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying (made up songs which teach error) to my people that hear your lies? Ezekiel 13:19
The women in all of the "just out of paganism" would have many women who had been involved as prophetesses in the pagan temples. The lusting males wanted female priestesses and so they were chosen for the public worship because they could attract the seekers. The singing, dancing, hand-clapping and playing musical instruments in the secular style was a deliberate effort to "hunt and slay souls" just so they can get a handful of barley or a "plug for my new record." This pollution or spiritual prostitution was:
Halal or Chalal (h2490) khaw-lal'; to bore, i. e. (by impl.) to wound, to dissolve; fig. to profane (a person, place or thing), denom. (from 2485) to play (the flute): break, defile, eat as common things, gather the grape thereof, take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.
It is interesting that the Judas bag was for "carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments" and that Jesus "polluted" or ground a piece of bread to bits and fed it to Judas. This "sop" is directly related to external melody or psallo which Paul outlawed in Ephesus.
Click Here to read Matthew Henry's commentary on the pollution caused by false women prophesiers.
We noted that the NIV is the so-called authority for churches to violate Paul's clear statement. However, the following three versions do not give this aid and comfort:
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over (like a babbling wind) the man, but to be in silence. 1Ti.2:12KJV
I never let women teach men or lord it over them. Let them be silent in your church meetings. 1Ti 2:12LIV
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 1Ti 2:12NIV
Remember, that in Corinth where women were not permitted to sing or speak even inspired information. Likewise, the inspired men were to speak one at a time and another inspired man was to discern whether he was actually speaking for Christ.
Woman is: Gune (g1135) goo-nay'; prob. from the base of 1096; a woman; spec. a wife
Silence in Timothy and in Peter's prohibition of women teaching or any stand up role:
Esuchia (g2271) hay-soo-khee'-ah; feminine of 2272; (as noun) stillness, i.e. desistance from bustle or language: - quietness, silence.
Esuchios (g2272) hay-soo'-khee-os; a prol. form of a comp. prob. of a der. of the base of 1476 and perh. 2192 (to hold); prop. keeping one's seat (sedentary), i.e. (by impl.) still (undisturbed, undisturbing): - peaceable, quiet.
Hedraios (g1476) hed-rah'-yos; to sit; sedentary, i.e. (by impl.) immovable: - settled, stedfast
Hêsuch-ia A. rest, quiet 2. silence, stillness, stand out of the way
Herodotus, The Histories 5:XCII. These were the words of the Lacedaemonians, but their words were ill-received by the greater part of their allies. The rest then keeping silence, Socles, a Corinthian, said,
Paul does just not want the women to be silent in the sense of not preaching over or teaching over the assembly, he wants them to remain seated. Part of this is based on the conditions: the pagan women were used to being unruly and disruptive believing that disorder was attractive to the gods. The Hebrew Halal describes this form of body-praise. Part of it was timeless: women standing over, singing over or preaching over men exercises their particular sexual authority.
In the book, The Acts of Thomas, we hear:
"How the flute-girl, holding her flute in her hand, went about to them all and played, but when she came to the place where the apostle was, she stood over him and played at his head for a long space: now this flute-girl was by race an Hebrew...
"And all when they saw it were amazed and inquired which of them it was that was missing. And when it became manifest that it was the hand of the cup-bearer which had smitten the apostle, the flute-girl brake her flute and cast it away and went and sat down at the apostle's feet, saying: This is either a god or an apostle of God, for I heard him say in the Hebrew tongue: ' I shall now see the hand that hath smitten me dragged by dogs', which thing ye also have now beheld; for as he said, so hath it come about. And some believed her, and some not." Read the rest of the story which explains Paul's statements about music.
Notice that neither Jesus nor Paul gave men authority in the sense of command leadership such as preaching over and usurping the authority of the male elders. Elders rule as they teach and others submit as they listen and obey. The males lifting holy hands had no authority unless, of course, they were the common pagan prophesiers who had sexual and homosexual authority over men.
At this time, the word for authority involves sexual authority. By uncovering the hair or braiding it with ornaments or "putting on apparel" for the effect the goal was to seduce men and gain total control over them. A woman who stood over the assembly to sing, preach or just wave her hands around subjects herself to the wandering eyes of the congregation (and the preacher). The result is intentional or ignorant sexual subversion of the otherwise holy environment which was primarily for reading the revealed Word.
Worship is not booms and clangs to frazzle the nervers with hyped-up, wired up, over-amplified, overdressed, and over exposed women. Nor do preachers as a fairly new addition perform preaching as an act of worship for the congregation.
What applies to women applies to everyone not inspired or duly selected as presiding elders competent to teach the Word to those willing to be taught.
Musical worship teams in hymns (meaning prayers) are deliberately usurping authority over the entire church to shut them up because silence will not attract as man commercial customers to the "worship service" seeking to "bring the worshipers into the presence of God."
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